Silly Rabbit, Trix are for Kids!
John Piper would rephrase that, “Silly women, Church is for men!”
The assumptions this video makes about women is astounding. It wouldn’t be enough to simply say, “The Bible says women can’t be in leadership, so women I think your ministry is going to be defined in some other way.” That is erroneous, but respectable at some level. Yet Piper does not say that. Instead, he tells women to pray for leadership, to pray their children into leadership, to not waste their life on soaps or feel overwhelmed at a stage in their life when they have three (or was it six?) kids under the age of six. Does Piper believe that women are good for anything except praying and popping out babies? The more kids you have, the more likely it is that at least one of them will be a boy!
Piper’s advice assumes a clearly subordinate view of women, which is lucky for him, since he happens to be a man. Women are supposed to love their leadership, and help that leadership with their gifts. Which is certainly true. But Piper does not acknowledge the submission goes both ways. He seems to think women don’t have any gifts, and would prefer to watch soaps than be involved in the church, or if they do happen to be creative and articulate, that creativity and articulateness needs to be limited to prayer. Has Piper ever actually talked to a woman?
Piper has a death-grip on control. His fear-based language is apparent when he says that there are some women-dominated churches that have driven men away. Well, maybe it shouldn’t be put at the blame of the woman (weird, does that sound familiar? “That woman you put here with me…”) but recognized as a way in which the church has conformed to the men-dominated culture. The culture was able to be dominated by men because they defined power as physical strength. Does Christianity claim the same thing? If so, if the strong are powerful, then it would make sense for men to be in leadership. Yet Christ’s gospel tends to be a gospel of reversals– the weak are strong in the picture of the church.
It is a pity that many women would be certainly fine with Piper’s assessment of them. It is the church’s role to bring women up to their full potential (the same goes for men), not subordinate them.
Jasmine, I feel compelled to point out that the submission between Jesus and God the Father does not go both ways. Jesus clearly stated that he was on earth to do the will of the Father. And in 1 Corinthians 11:3 it states that the head of Christ is God the Father, right after saying that man is the head of woman. Now is Jesus any less God than God the Father, no. But Jesus definitely has a different purpose and role in the trinity than God the Father does. In the same, men and women have different roles in life such as marriage or leadership in the church.
As well, I assure you that Piper does not agree with the statement that women should not be in any leadership in the church. First, leadership is a very broad category and could mean a many different roles. I do know that he does not believe that women are to hold the position of pastor. But that doesn’t mean they can’t be a worship leader or a youth leader. I can’t say exactly where he draws the line but you also must understand that he doesn’t do it out of a control issue but out of a heart that wants to love and follow God and be true to His word. I know many people who I disagree with issues of doctrine and theology and there does need to be lines drawn that says, “This is a big enough issue that I don’t consider you a brother or sister in Christ.” But there are those that I do consider brothers and sisters in Christ and I know that they are trying to be true to what they think the scriptures are saying. And with them we talk and try to understand where each other is coming from but in the end of the day I love them, I bless them, and I pray that God would continue to work in both of our lives because there are still many things for us to learn. Always.
I do believe that men and women have different roles in marriage as well as in the church but I do not uphold that men are better or superior to women but that they are different. And it is true that I am a man and I don’t know what it’s like to be a women. But when I have talked to women, especially older women who were around when women had to fight for rights in the workplace and such, they are more inlined with agreeing with me than disagreeing.
In the end, the Lord is good and He has gotten you this far. Whatever may come, continue to trust in the Lord. We both have much to learn and I ask that you would lift me up in pray and I will commit to do the same for you.
P.S. Statistically the church is very women dominated, in both attendance and participation. But you are right that men definitely need to be called into accountability for this truth.
Jasmine,
Do you actually know John Piper? Have you ever had a conversation with him? Have you spoken to the women at his church? His wife? His daughter? His daughters-in-law?
I think your views of Piper are off base and I think you are reading into his words here something that isn’t there. He doesn’t say that female creativity is only used for prayer. In fact, he explicitly says that women should give themselves over to ministry – implying much more than simply prayer (though, not as if that is of little consequence in the Kingdom of God). And at no time does he ever claim that women should only have babies – never. So, while you ask if Piper has ever talked to a woman, you might ask if you have ever spoken to a committed female Complementarian who ministers, like Susan Hunt, Mary Kassian, Beth Moore, Kim Pennington, Kay Arthur, Barbara Rainey, Carolyn Mahaney, Courtney Tarter, and I could go on and on? BTW, almost all those I mentioned above are published authors, pouring their hearts out daily for the cause of Christ. And all see Complementarianism and what Piper says differently than you (and they are filled with joy inexpressible, which they will tell you all about if you ask them).
And like what Piper says, they know how to “be strong women”, they don’t believe submission means “thoughtless.” They are “engaged in ministry” giving “themselves away” and being “engaged in the civic” arenas around them.
So, while you seem to suggest that being a Complementarian means that women are not brought to their potential, I would disagree. Being the very essence of what God clearly calls women to be in the Scriptures is full of potential, and life, and abundance. Now, you may dismiss this because I am a man, but if you honestly are seeking truth, I can put you in contact with plenty of women with whom I would agree – starting with my beautiful, independent, and strong wife.
Hi Jasmine,
thanks for your thoughtful post. Scary video clip. Yikes!! Sorry that you have to put up with such gibberish as well as with the helpful and sensitive corrections of the male commentors above (completely unbiased as they are
The best thing I’ve read on this topic is a book titled ‘Finally Femenist’ by John Stackhouse out of Regent College titled. Very good and fairly short (130p.)
Enjoy your blog. All the best
Rob from DownUnder
Let me augment my post with another comment.
I don’t have as much of a problem with Piper’s view that women should not be in main leadership. I realize that discussion is brought to light from this video, but only indirectly I think. I apologize if my original post made it seem like that was my main beef… I can respectfully disagree at that point, since I think that the church has wed itself to the modernistic ideas of imperial power, and so is so encultured by that mindset that it would take a lot of conversation to persuade otherwise. I would not attempt to fully persuade in a short blog.
However, what led me to post so vehemently (and possibly a bit rashly without a whole lot of familiarity with Piper)blog about this video was the universal nature of Piper’s comment. The topic of the video is “to the women in the church,” not “to the mothers who have a soap addiction in the church.” It isn’t as much that what he said was wrong; certainly if I was a woman with three kids under the age of six, and I felt frazzled and wanted to zone out and watch soaps all day, I would appreciate Piper’s truthful direction. However, I am not that woman, and there seems to be an assumption that all women in the church are like that, or if they are not, they should be.
Also, about his comments on prayer, I think that is a very good vocation for anyone to participate in. However, although Piper mentions that women should “get involved” and have some sort of creativity, he doesn’t offer any real productive method of doing that, leaving the audience of women thinking the only way they can get involved, according to what he said there, is to pray.
Halden posted a similar blog, and in the conversation stemming from that it was mentioned that it isn’t really a matter of what he said, its what he didn’t say, and the problematic view (or lack thereof) he has of vocation. Is the only vocation allowed women praying and motherhood? Even if they are not allowed to be top leaders, the least Piper could do is offer a little more variety. I would have gladly watched the video longer if he gave some substantial advice to other types of women in the church.
Regarding the submission aspect, of Christ and the Father, I would encourage a reading of “The Shack” for a fictional picture (and quite memorable one) of the communal nature of the trinity.
I have to say something positive for your perspective, as it’s easy to rag on the person who speaks out that they aren’t speaking out exactly right against this very charismatic, intelligent and well educated author.
I’m with you, this sucks as a perspective. It’s not just what isn’t said, but some of what is said that bothers me. I’ve read some of Piper’s work, and I like the guy, but I hate this video.
I do wonder what he would call a small body of women who gathered together in the Lord’s Name. Would he dare call them a legitimate expression of the church? What would he call the woman who led it?
It’s easy for men to criticize when we hold the exclusive claim to power based soley on what hangs between our legs. It requires more of us than spouting the same old dogma and rhetoric that we have been for the last…forever. Let’s thoughtfully reconsider afresh. It’s the very least we could do.
I came by way of Halden. Thanks for the post Jazimomo
Jasmine,
I appreciate your willingness to see the other side of the issue. And I acknowledge that Piper did not say in the video what might have been best. However, Piper has spoken and written in length on this subject, especially in his book, Biblical Manhood and Womanhood. Additionally, he is a pastor, and truthfully, this isn’t his only concern. So his time is limited and especially so in the video. Had his intent been to exhaust the subject, then certainly he would have done a poor job. But I don’t think that was his intent and I don’t think you are trying to make a case for that. In the end, Piper was directing his video at a particular segment of the population in the Church and he was trying to do so prophetically, by bringing up a specific situation of sin (the addiction to “soaps”), which he certainly felt would speak to some, but doubtful that he believed it would speak to all. And Piper does this elsewhere, especially when he talks to men. In one particular sermon he titled, “Man Talk” he spent almost the entire time talking about pornography, though I am certain he doesn’t believe that is the only issue needed to be spoken of in relation to men. However, he felt compelled at that time to speak on it. I think the same is true here. He felt led by the Spirit to speak a particular message at a particular time. As a Pastor I understand that – sometimes I simply cannot exhaust a subject, as much as I wish that I could. My point in all of this is that I think you expected more from him than legitimately possible in a 5-minute video. So I recommend reading more of his work on this subject (as well as others) by visiting cbmw.org, where hundreds of articles are available (many of which are written by the women I mentioned above). Thanks again for your comment and the spirit in which it was written.